Refreshed after having the previous week off, the Lemmings bounced into their home venue looking forward to a clash with The Weaver. Sunil was standing in for Wendy and looking forward to a PB whilst the Weaver looked pretty secure in second place in the League. The game clashed with the Arsenal Barcelona football but even the remarkable two goals of Messi failed to inject any
excitement into the quiz battle; however one question (GK 71) did initiate a lively discussion about how much tolerance, if any, should be given – in this case, the Weaver answered with gorgon but the given answer was (correctly) Medusa – see Duncan’s comment below. I must stress this in no way detracted from the high standard of the questions.
At the end of the Specialist questions the Lemmings despite their energy and confidence were trailing by 23 points!! They had 45 to the Weavers’ 68 but have been known to make up a deficit in the General Knowledge.
As someone once said “We shall fight with growing confidence” – so, after drinks of Brian’s fortifying ales the Lemmings confidently sat down to make up the deficit. Sadly this was more of the Dardanelles than most other battles and the Lemmings lost the General Knowledge with 65 points to the Weaver’s 114 making the final score 182 to 110. The worst ever defeat for the Lemmings in all their incarnations.
Individual scores were Bob 12/9, Sunil 0/6, Nick 12/9 and Tomo 9/18; conferred points were 8/17 with 4/6 pass-overs whilst the Weavers collected 9/11 pass-overs.
Arsenal lost too
However, the beer was of its usual exceptional standard and was soaked up with a magnificent selection of sandwiches and a superb pork pie – many thanks to Brian, to the Weaver and to the Dolphin who supplied the questions and question master
14 comments:
Blog comment from Duncan Disorderley:
I would like to put a plea in (not for the first time) about disagreements over the answers to questions during a quiz match. One question was asked about snake-headed women. The answer given was “Gorgon”. The answer on the question-masters sheet was “Medusa”, after some to-and-fro comment and without a consensus the answer “Gorgon” was allowed. This is wrong.
Those of us old lags who have been in the league and acting as question-masters for years are used to the cut and thrust of monologue but I have seen ‘new’ question masters confused, even bullied when someone who patently thinks the answer is wrong sticks an oar in and victory eventually goes to the one who shouts loudest.
The Quiz League comprises set questions with set answers, in writing. When there is a dispute the question and answer should be withdrawn by the QM and replaced by a supplementary question ONLY if both team captains agree that it is wrong.
Should an individual or a team not be satisfied at the end of the quiz the matter should be referred to the league officers for a ruling. Saying that it is a shite question or a stupid answer in a loud voice should not carry the day.
A good point well made by Duncan
I had a similar issue with a couple of my questions - Æthelred was ill advised when I was at school, and still is according to Wikipedia, but that wasn't the answer given. I got a laugh but no points for quoting a cruise ship captain who explained that when a ship sank, survivors would be picked up by a boat. The Royal Navy uses lifeboats - apparently early submarines were carried on ships, so were deemed boats.
The QM's decision is, however final.
"While descriptions of Gorgons vary across Greek literature and occur in the earliest examples of Greek literature, the term commonly refers to any of three sisters who had hair made of living, venomous snakes" - so says Wikipedia (1 minute of work). Had I been QM I would have been very much inclined to accept either answer - but I think Gorgon is better. (parallel - which creature miaows? Cat is a better answer than Tiddles).
We had similar fun with Aethelred, I was inclined to let the Ox-fford have their one for "ill-advised" - not that it was going to put the result in doubt.
As such, my sympathies fall with the Weaver on this one - obviously there is a point where asserting one's right to points for having given a correct answer goes beyond what a QM should have to endure (and one wasn't there, so how do I know whether this was reached) - but I can totally understand why (even in a game where the result is foregone) a player who may be in the running for individual honours wants to fight for their points. I would have been quietly seething in the position of a player denied the points above.
I think that, in the days of I-Pads/internet enabled phones and Wi-Fi connections in nearly all league venues (this might not work in Rainow/Rushton!), the smartest solution would be for the QM to make a temporary ruling and then, at the next break in play, the correct answer should be sought and points restored or removed as appropriate. If the answer is ambiguous or the question definitively wrong (unlike this one), then the sup could be brought out and the question replayed. In the vast majority of cases where a match is not decided by 1 or 2 points, this shouldn't cause too much trouble.
Otherwise, a decent set of questions with a slight over-emphasis on inventions, but the Robin and the Ox-fford negotiated the night with good humour. The inevitable defeat ensued, but we got our 140ish which keeps us out of the drop zone on "goal difference".
I have to disagree with Nick on the Gorgon/Medusa question. The question asked "In Greek mythology which monster is shaped like a woman but with snakes for hair?". Is a Gorgon in Greek mythology? Yes. Is it shaped like a woman? Yes. Does it have snakes for hair? Yes. Case closed. The question was poorly worded.
I guess the issue is "wrong in fact" versus "wrong in process".
Agree with Alan that Gorgon is the best possible answer that could be given to the question.
However, the point at the top (which Nick himself has paraphrased from "Duncan" and I think most of us probably can guess who he is) states that a QM making a decision when they themselves aren't certain due to duress is the wrong way to get to the right place, if the captains couldn't agree to play a sup (or better still, give the 3 for Gorgon)
I know Alan won't thank me for the round-ball analogy, but a referee (somewhere on the continent) was suspended for reversing a key decision after watching an action replay on a big screen. This broke with acceptable procedure, albeit it enabled a "correct" decision to be made.
I was the QM for WG Lemmings v Weaver. I'll be honest my Greek Mythology isn't up too much. The only Gorgon I was aware of was Medusa, although there's a fair possibility my ex wife is one! Checking with Liz (Dolphin Dragons) she informed me that according to Ovid, Medusa is the only Gorgon with snakes for hair. So is Ovid or Wikipedia the definitive source here? In any case after gaining consensus (albeit begrudgingly & after a painfully long time) I did give Gorgon for a 3.
I have a few other points I think are worthy of mention. We set our questions well in advance. This inevitably necessitates the odd substitution when other teams ask a similar or identical question earlier in the season. Vetting is important, but sometimes you miss things or simply see what you expect. (GK 76) was meant to be Mervyn Davies (Welsh rugby number 8), rather than the hirsute Mervyn Hughes (Australian fast bowler). Both were known as Merve "the swerve", although the latter more for reasons of onomatopoeia considering he was 6'5", 18+ stone & had the stopping distance of an oil tanker. According to a contemporary team mate the only thing he swerved was the salad bar. Simply though what depth of knowledge is it reasonable to expect?
I noticed a link between (GK 22) Quanting Pole & (GK 64) Mary Quant. I made a joke about how her poles weren't a lot of use on the King's Road. There was also some humour gained from the "mini Belgian" round (GK 29-31). Not worthy of Peter Kay by any means, but isn't enjoyment (however it's obtained) the whole point of this exercise? If it's no fun, why do it?
I used to play in the 'C' league. There's a view outside of the 'A' league that one or two of us take the whole quiz thing a little bit too seriously & are in danger of becoming grumpy, boring pendants. When QMing in the 'A' league certain teams are considered to be the short straw. No one likes an incorrect question, but keeping a sense of perspective is important. It's not personal & nobody dies in the end.
I'm fairly sure that Merv Hughes never captained Australia - therefore that question was fine (although MW and myself fell into the trap)
You can add "quilting", I was wondering if there was a hidden "Q" specialist round in the generals.
In any competitive activity (and I refuse to accept that any teams have no concern for competition at any level) with divisions there is going to be a difference in attitude - I wouldn't like to say that the ethos is wrong in either A or C league (and, having made the shift from B to A this year - and probably back again) I think those differences are largely overstated. Yes, QMing at the Weaver wasn't the same experience as QMing at a cup game involving two C leaguers, but that is life. A QM is a bit different from a referee/umpire - unpaid for a start - and probably ought to be able to head out without fear of conflict - unless they are so bloody-minded that they create it.
Some cursory research on various classic education sites suggest that the other two (Stheno and Euryale) shared the snakes, but had the added gift of immortality. The original Ovid is beyond me on too many levels.
Sorry for the ambiguities/errors in either questions or answers. (4 out of 180) They were vetted in some detail but even Homer nods as the saying goes. But good humour and a bit of give and take in these cases such as was shown in the match that I QM-ed would seem to be the best option. Question Setters as well as QMs are amateurs, and "I promise to do my best" (as the Scout and Guide movements have it) acknowledges our human fallibility.
Having said that, obviously I would wish for no errors or ambiguities.These are reduced by conscientious vetting, such as we had - thank you Harrington B and Cock -a -2 But a fair spread of topics, and a balance of these between teams, and even individuals (my husband devised a program for me to help with this)and a reasonable level of difficulty so that most questions are answerable, but there is scope for discrimination, would seem to be the most important things. These help to ensure an enjoyable evening. As Magnus Magnussun (to name drop a bit) once said to me "Only a game, Elizabeth, only a game"... Liz H
Well, I haven’t heard such a good argument about Ovid for nearly 40 years!
Ovid’s Metamorphoses Book IV has the Medusa / Gorgon story right at the end of the book and at the risk of sending everyone reading this (apart from Liz, perhaps) into a coma, the good old Penguin Classics translation by Mary Innes is the best one – newer translations are available…
If anyone has managed to read this far, Ovid does indeed only mention her but the other two are referenced elsewhere in mythological terms, albeit in lesser works.
The bottom line – Dave Cooper did a good job to accept Gorgon as an answer for the question as written. You could have re-written the question to ask what was the name of the monster with snakes instead of hair slain by Perseus or similar, but let those of us who haven’t ever made a mistake…
They were very good questions on Tuesday overall. Whilst some teams didn’t like them, most did and they will not trouble the bottom of the Cars and Vans 4U table.
As the Rules say, in any dispute during play, the Question Master’s decision is final with an appeal possible. Supplementary questions are there to allow the Question Master (and the teams involved) to resolve disputes. A bit of better communication and co-operation is usually the answer in these scenarios – see also the “Mervyn Hughes” question which certainly tripped me up as AAD says!
no probs with Merv Hughes - we were wrong, they were right.
A wild coincidence that both the surviving Gorgons moved to Macc and married Dave and Mark respectively!
Was understated in my praise for Liz/the questions earlier - the margin of victory for the Ox-fford over us was entirely as it should be and the key issue of "discrimination" - allowing the strongest players to excel whilst not giving freebies was achieved. In this vein, I would say that the qs were more worthy than the ones set by the Park Timers the week before - who, for good or ill, made sure that anybody and everybody racked up a decent score. As a middling player I can walk away feeling that my 33 was well-earned.
When the highest capital city question was asked, I scribbled Quito, but the Flag answered La Paz, which was accepted as correct. There was something in The Times on Saturday which said the capital of Bolivia was Sucre. I then found this:
La Paz became the seat of the executive and legislative branches of the Bolivian government and the judicial branch remained in Sucre. Today Sucre remains as the one and only capital of Bolivia, per the Bolivian constitution. However, La Paz is sometimes erroneously called the administrative (or de facto) capital.
First a discourse on Ovid, then Bolivian political history. You live and learn.
I then Googled highest capital cities, and La Paz was number one, followed by Quito
It gets better than that. South Africa can lay claim to three separate capitals if you go by branch of government. Cape Town (legislative), Pretoria (executive) and the probably much lesser recognised Bloemfontein (judicial) all have a shout. Add to that, a constitutional court that sits in Jo'burg and it could be stretched to 4.
M'lud, if it please the court, the question asked was as follows:
"In Greek mythology, which monster is shaped like a woman, but with snakes for hair?".
The question was not:
"In Greek mythology, which RACE of monsters..." etc.
Clearly, the question referred to the well known Medusa, the others of her race being somewhat obscure to even the very knowledgeable Weaver teams. Indeed, M'lud, The Weavers had to consult Mr Google's celebrated search engine using a mobile telephone equipped for such access during a subsequent break in proceedings to find any other examples of Gorgons whatsoever.
If I can act as the arbiter in said court....
I'm still absolutely with Mr Levitt on the 3-worthiness of Gorgons. Monster can be a collective or singular noun. As a total non-Classicist I knew that Medusa was one of a trio, my expert colleague (BA Oxon 2:1) said that she would tell me on Monday whether Medusa was the sole serpentine one.
That the WGLs would not hand over the points freely is somewhat out of character, on surface...
1) My first encounter with "homonym/homophone" was against said opponents - one recalls Mr Langstaff cheerily saying "give him the points"....
2) My QM virginity was popped (with all the inept clumsiness that tends to fit the metaphor) in a tight top of the table clash between WGL and the British Flag. An incorrect WGL answer was corrected by me, rather than passed over. As I looked for a sup, Neil Drummond presented a written down answer - WGL insisted that I give the point as passed over.
So... not a team prone to obstruction on a normal day
The lesson in this might be that there are civilised, friendly and effective ways of going about correcting a problem (credit to the Weaver here - I QMd a game earlier this season, Alan G spotted a 3-pointer that I had recorded as conferred incorrectly and we calmly looked back and made the amendment after 30 seconds of deliberation; Graham listened to co-operative discussion when he was QMing and I faced "Return of the homonym"). Was the manner in which the query was raised the reason for digging in of heels?
Well done Mr Cooper for getting to the right call in the end.
One spent some of my earlier life dealing with the reprobates of Macclesfield as a referee in Sunday morning football (if Simon Rumsey and Martin Stoneley don't remember me, I remember them). I quite like the combative element. I can speak for one of my team-mates who is extremely reluctant to QM (owing to events in a B League fixture, for those who believe that the A League is Pandora's Box) owing to the pressure he felt over a 1 point disparity in scores last year. Shock horror, some teams struggle to put out 4 QMs.
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